CC school board says split out the private schools
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LTListenerFTCaller
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Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
BY JACK SMILES / PUBLISHED: FEBRUARY 8, 2015
Looking for someone to blame for the Holy Redeemer girls basketball team’s recent 125-13 defeat of MMI Prep?
How about state Rep. Frank Stanley, D-Lehigh?
In 1972, Stanley shepherded a bill through the state Legislature to allow Pennsylvania Catholic Interscholastic Athletic Association (PCIAA) schools to opt into Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association (PIAA)-sponsored tournaments.
The PCIAA mirrored the PIAA in that it operated A, B and C state championship basketball tournaments with districts leading to east against west championship games in each division, as did the PIAA. The A division represented the schools with the largest enrollments and the C the least.
Stanley believed it wasn’t fair that the Catholic schools couldn’t compete in the “coveted” PIAA tournament. It was thought the PIAA was more competitive than the PCIAA and that Catholic schools should be able to compete against the best.
Certainly, the PIAA was deeper. It had several hundred more schools. Stanley was from Allentown and he cited the fate of the 1971-72 Allentown Central Catholic team, which won the public school-dominated East Penn League championship but, as Stanley said, “had to sit out the playoffs.”
Not exactly. It played in the PCIAA A tournament and lost to Erie Cathedral Prep by a point in the championship game.
Sportswriters in the state predicted Stanley’s legislation would lead to a merger of the PCIAA and PIAA. They were being kind. There was no merger. So many Catholic schools opted into the PIAA that, two years later, after an abbreviated state championship tournament in 1974, the PCIAA just disappeared.
At the time, no one could have conceived that Catholic or private schools would one day dominate the PIAA tournaments as they do now. In the past 10 seasons, 17 of the 20 teams in the PIAA boys Class AA title games were Catholic, private or charter schools. Then again, maybe Stanley should have seen the handwriting on the wall. In 1974, in its first year in the PIAA, Holy Ghost Prep from Bensalem won the Class A championship with two starting players from New Jersey.
In the Wyoming Valley, the Catholic League consisted of seven teams with three based in Wilkes-Barre — St. Nicholas, St. Mary’s and Marymount. In addition, there was St. Vincent’s of Plymouth; Sacred Heart, Plains, St. John’s, Pittston and St. Leo’s, Ashley. In the final years six of those were Class C, with only St. Mary’s classified as Class B.
On the west side, West Side Central Catholic played an independent schedule and was classified in Class A.
Though Stanley’s bill was aimed at Catholic schools, it also opened the PIAA tournaments to private schools, which didn’t have their own athletic association and no path to state championships.
Given that, it isn’t quite right to say Stanley’s legislation is to blame for Redeemer’s 125-13 win over MMI Prep. As a private school, MMI can draw students from anywhere and, in theory, some of those students could be basketball stars.
Sounds far-fetched now, but in 1973, the first year of the open tournament, the MMI boys had a first team all-state player named Jim Lundy and won the PIAA Class C championship.
While the PIAA is not likely to do anything about Catholic-school dominance in basketball, charter schools are another matter.
PIAA director Bob Lombardi does not believe charter schools should have sports programs because the public schools in their districts are paying for the charter schools. Lombardi and the PIAA believe charter school students should play for the public schools where they live.
From a story by KDKA-TV investigator reporter Andy Sheehan about Lincoln Park Performing Arts Charter School in Beaver County, which has played in three of the last four PIAA Class A title games: “A local school for the performing arts has only been around for five years, but it already has one of the best boys basketball teams in the state.”
Sheenhan reported that in those five years, 27 boys basketball players transferred from their home school districts to Lincoln Park, including 6-foot-11 Devontae Watson.
In the story, Cornell School District’s Bill Sacco questioned how a charter school for the performing arts could become a basketball powerhouse in such a short time. “Well, you can only conjecture that some of them aren’t down there just to dance.” Sacco said.
In 1972, Stanley couldn’t have envisioned a scenario like that when he opened the PIAA tournament to Catholic schools, bringing about the end of the PCIAA 41 years ago in 1974.
The PCIAA started in 1943, when the PIAA was 30 years old. During its 42-year run, Catholic school boys basketball teams from Carbondale, Scranton, Pittston, Wilkes-Barre, Ashley and Hazleton played in 12 state championship games, winning nine.
In the 1945 PCIAA Class B championship game, St. Casimir of Pittsburgh defeated St. Mary’s of Wilkes-Barre, 39-33, in Harrisburg.
In 1949, Class B Pittsburgh St. Justin beat Scranton St. Patrick at Scranton. That fall, a kid named Johnny Unitas took over as quarterback of the St. Justin football team.
In 1955, Class A St. Rose of Carbondale beat Pittsburgh North Catholic at Pitt Field House. In 1957, Class B St. Vincent’s of Plymouth defeated Pittsburgh St. Casimir in Hazleton. The Vinnies’ Bob Mullery, who famously scored 92 points earlier in the season against Sacred Heart, had 40 in the title game.
In 1958, Class B St. Leo’s of Ashley defeated St. Casimir’s of Pittsburgh. In 1961, Class B South Catholic of Scranton beat St. Canice of Pittsburgh at the Scranton CYC. In 1963, Class B St. Rose won its second PCIAA title, beating St. Joseph Natrona in Scranton.
In 1966, Class C St. Gabriel’s of Hazleton beat Masontown Kolb in Scranton. It was the last high school game for St. Gabe’s coach Richard “Digger” Phelps, who would go on to fame in the college ranks at Notre Dame.
In 1967, Class B Scranton Cathedral beat Giebel Catholic of Connellsville in Scranton. And St. Gabriel’s repeated in Class C, beating Northeast St. Gregory.
In 1968, Scranton Cathedral repeated in B, beating Pittsburgh St. Basil at the Scranton CYC. St. Gabriel’s won a third C title in 1970, beating Uniontown St. John’s Trinity High School in Shiremanstown.
The last Wyoming Valley team to make a run in the state playoffs was St. Nicholas in 1971. The team was coached by Tony Konieski and was led by a six-man rotation of Jim Beddall, Mark Schrode, Gene Marinelli, Ralph Szalkowski, Rich Miscavage and John Gouse. The Cardinals made it all the way to the Class C championship, losing to St. Fidelis of Herman, 59-52 at Latrobe.
The next year, St. Nick’s was morphed with the other Catholic League schools — with the exception of St. John’s — into Bishop Hoban. The Argents, along with the Scranton-based teams, continued to participate in the PCIAA playoffs for two years.
In 1973, at the Pitt Field House, District 2 teams played in all three PICAA title games.
In Class A, Scranton Prep beat Pittsburgh North Catholic, 48-46. Stan Waleski, whose daughter Liz recently scored her 1,000th point for Pittston Area, was on that team. In Class B, Bishop Hannan (formerly Scranton Cathedral), defeated Elk County. In Class C, St. John’s of Pittston lost to Bradford Central Christian, 64-60.
By 1974, the PCIAA was so depleted there was no A state tournament and no Eastern schools entered the B tournament. Four Western teams played off for the B title.
Eight teams entered in class C, four each from the east and west. In the championship game, Delone Catholic beat Pittsburgh South Side Catholic 60-59 on March 15 at Harrisburg in the last PCIAA game.
The first parochial school in the area to make its mark in the PIAA tournament came in 1974, when Bishop Klonowski of Scranton (formerly South Scranton Central Catholic) defeated St. John’s, 81-78 to win what was then Class A.
Looking for someone to blame for the Holy Redeemer girls basketball team’s recent 125-13 defeat of MMI Prep?
How about state Rep. Frank Stanley, D-Lehigh?
In 1972, Stanley shepherded a bill through the state Legislature to allow Pennsylvania Catholic Interscholastic Athletic Association (PCIAA) schools to opt into Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association (PIAA)-sponsored tournaments.
The PCIAA mirrored the PIAA in that it operated A, B and C state championship basketball tournaments with districts leading to east against west championship games in each division, as did the PIAA. The A division represented the schools with the largest enrollments and the C the least.
Stanley believed it wasn’t fair that the Catholic schools couldn’t compete in the “coveted” PIAA tournament. It was thought the PIAA was more competitive than the PCIAA and that Catholic schools should be able to compete against the best.
Certainly, the PIAA was deeper. It had several hundred more schools. Stanley was from Allentown and he cited the fate of the 1971-72 Allentown Central Catholic team, which won the public school-dominated East Penn League championship but, as Stanley said, “had to sit out the playoffs.”
Not exactly. It played in the PCIAA A tournament and lost to Erie Cathedral Prep by a point in the championship game.
Sportswriters in the state predicted Stanley’s legislation would lead to a merger of the PCIAA and PIAA. They were being kind. There was no merger. So many Catholic schools opted into the PIAA that, two years later, after an abbreviated state championship tournament in 1974, the PCIAA just disappeared.
At the time, no one could have conceived that Catholic or private schools would one day dominate the PIAA tournaments as they do now. In the past 10 seasons, 17 of the 20 teams in the PIAA boys Class AA title games were Catholic, private or charter schools. Then again, maybe Stanley should have seen the handwriting on the wall. In 1974, in its first year in the PIAA, Holy Ghost Prep from Bensalem won the Class A championship with two starting players from New Jersey.
In the Wyoming Valley, the Catholic League consisted of seven teams with three based in Wilkes-Barre — St. Nicholas, St. Mary’s and Marymount. In addition, there was St. Vincent’s of Plymouth; Sacred Heart, Plains, St. John’s, Pittston and St. Leo’s, Ashley. In the final years six of those were Class C, with only St. Mary’s classified as Class B.
On the west side, West Side Central Catholic played an independent schedule and was classified in Class A.
Though Stanley’s bill was aimed at Catholic schools, it also opened the PIAA tournaments to private schools, which didn’t have their own athletic association and no path to state championships.
Given that, it isn’t quite right to say Stanley’s legislation is to blame for Redeemer’s 125-13 win over MMI Prep. As a private school, MMI can draw students from anywhere and, in theory, some of those students could be basketball stars.
Sounds far-fetched now, but in 1973, the first year of the open tournament, the MMI boys had a first team all-state player named Jim Lundy and won the PIAA Class C championship.
While the PIAA is not likely to do anything about Catholic-school dominance in basketball, charter schools are another matter.
PIAA director Bob Lombardi does not believe charter schools should have sports programs because the public schools in their districts are paying for the charter schools. Lombardi and the PIAA believe charter school students should play for the public schools where they live.
From a story by KDKA-TV investigator reporter Andy Sheehan about Lincoln Park Performing Arts Charter School in Beaver County, which has played in three of the last four PIAA Class A title games: “A local school for the performing arts has only been around for five years, but it already has one of the best boys basketball teams in the state.”
Sheenhan reported that in those five years, 27 boys basketball players transferred from their home school districts to Lincoln Park, including 6-foot-11 Devontae Watson.
In the story, Cornell School District’s Bill Sacco questioned how a charter school for the performing arts could become a basketball powerhouse in such a short time. “Well, you can only conjecture that some of them aren’t down there just to dance.” Sacco said.
In 1972, Stanley couldn’t have envisioned a scenario like that when he opened the PIAA tournament to Catholic schools, bringing about the end of the PCIAA 41 years ago in 1974.
The PCIAA started in 1943, when the PIAA was 30 years old. During its 42-year run, Catholic school boys basketball teams from Carbondale, Scranton, Pittston, Wilkes-Barre, Ashley and Hazleton played in 12 state championship games, winning nine.
In the 1945 PCIAA Class B championship game, St. Casimir of Pittsburgh defeated St. Mary’s of Wilkes-Barre, 39-33, in Harrisburg.
In 1949, Class B Pittsburgh St. Justin beat Scranton St. Patrick at Scranton. That fall, a kid named Johnny Unitas took over as quarterback of the St. Justin football team.
In 1955, Class A St. Rose of Carbondale beat Pittsburgh North Catholic at Pitt Field House. In 1957, Class B St. Vincent’s of Plymouth defeated Pittsburgh St. Casimir in Hazleton. The Vinnies’ Bob Mullery, who famously scored 92 points earlier in the season against Sacred Heart, had 40 in the title game.
In 1958, Class B St. Leo’s of Ashley defeated St. Casimir’s of Pittsburgh. In 1961, Class B South Catholic of Scranton beat St. Canice of Pittsburgh at the Scranton CYC. In 1963, Class B St. Rose won its second PCIAA title, beating St. Joseph Natrona in Scranton.
In 1966, Class C St. Gabriel’s of Hazleton beat Masontown Kolb in Scranton. It was the last high school game for St. Gabe’s coach Richard “Digger” Phelps, who would go on to fame in the college ranks at Notre Dame.
In 1967, Class B Scranton Cathedral beat Giebel Catholic of Connellsville in Scranton. And St. Gabriel’s repeated in Class C, beating Northeast St. Gregory.
In 1968, Scranton Cathedral repeated in B, beating Pittsburgh St. Basil at the Scranton CYC. St. Gabriel’s won a third C title in 1970, beating Uniontown St. John’s Trinity High School in Shiremanstown.
The last Wyoming Valley team to make a run in the state playoffs was St. Nicholas in 1971. The team was coached by Tony Konieski and was led by a six-man rotation of Jim Beddall, Mark Schrode, Gene Marinelli, Ralph Szalkowski, Rich Miscavage and John Gouse. The Cardinals made it all the way to the Class C championship, losing to St. Fidelis of Herman, 59-52 at Latrobe.
The next year, St. Nick’s was morphed with the other Catholic League schools — with the exception of St. John’s — into Bishop Hoban. The Argents, along with the Scranton-based teams, continued to participate in the PCIAA playoffs for two years.
In 1973, at the Pitt Field House, District 2 teams played in all three PICAA title games.
In Class A, Scranton Prep beat Pittsburgh North Catholic, 48-46. Stan Waleski, whose daughter Liz recently scored her 1,000th point for Pittston Area, was on that team. In Class B, Bishop Hannan (formerly Scranton Cathedral), defeated Elk County. In Class C, St. John’s of Pittston lost to Bradford Central Christian, 64-60.
By 1974, the PCIAA was so depleted there was no A state tournament and no Eastern schools entered the B tournament. Four Western teams played off for the B title.
Eight teams entered in class C, four each from the east and west. In the championship game, Delone Catholic beat Pittsburgh South Side Catholic 60-59 on March 15 at Harrisburg in the last PCIAA game.
The first parochial school in the area to make its mark in the PIAA tournament came in 1974, when Bishop Klonowski of Scranton (formerly South Scranton Central Catholic) defeated St. John’s, 81-78 to win what was then Class A.
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LTListenerFTCaller
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Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
Let's take a quick quiz. What do all these events have in common?
A. The Shippensburg football team scores two touchdowns in the last minute, adding a two-point conversion by Cameron Tinner on the last score, to defeat Bishop McDevitt, 29-28, in the District 3 Class 4A semifinals on Nov. 18.
B. On the same day, the Fairfield girls' soccer team ties a championship game record for goals scored in a 9-4 victory against Shady Side Academy in the PIAA Class 1A final, with Nora Clarke scoring four of the goals.
C. Turning back the clock the 1999 basketball season, Annville-Cleona's Mark Brandt makes three free throws with no time remaining to help the Dutchmen earn a 54-50 overtime win against Reading Central Catholic in the PIAA Class 2A quarterfinals, on the way to a state title.
The common thread that connects those moments? All were memorable playoff games in which public school teams defeated private school teams, moments that would not happen if Pennsylvania followed the lead of other states and held separate public and private postseason tournaments.
For years, critics have argued that the district and state playoffs should be separate. The playing field, they point out, is not even: Private schools can welcome players from anywhere, while public schools' rosters are limited to athletes within their school district's geographic borders.
Last month, retired Manheim Central football coach Mike Williams, who coached the Barons to 16 District 3 titles and one PIAA title, added his voice to the issue. Williams expressed his concerns over the current system on Twitter and in a story published in LNP, in which he advocated for separating the playoffs into public and private tournaments.
Critics who have called for such a split also point to a disparity in championship victories in the highest profile sports. Private schools make up only about a quarter of PIAA members, but private school teams won four of six football state titles in December, and six out of eight basketball state titles last March (boys and girls combined).
However, if there were separate playoffs, a price would have to be paid.
While there would still be memorable games and achievements, the perception of public schools' postseason achievements would be diminished.
For example, if the Fairfield girls' soccer team were the “PIAA Class 1A public school champion,” the extra qualifier gives the accomplishment less weight.
Adding the words “private school champion” might do that, too, but since the main reason given for separating the playoffs is because private schools have an advantage, more shine would come off of the public school's trophy than the private school's. The assumption would be that the private school champion is automatically better than the public school champion. It won't always be true, but there would be no way to settle the issue or crown one true champion.
Consider last season's basketball championships. In March, only two public schools won state titles, but they were remarkable victories. The Aliquippa boys' basketball team finished off an undefeated season by defeating Mastery Charter North, 68-49, in the PIAA Class 2A final. The Cumberland Valley girls' basketball team downed Cardinal O'Hara, 57-34, for its third straight Class 4A championship.
In a system of separate playoffs, Aliquippa and Cumberland Valley would not have been given the chance to take the floor and prove they were better than the private schools that they not only beat, but dominated, in their sport's biggest stage.
But there's a bigger reason to keep public and private schools united in one postseason, bigger than the perceived value of the championships. There is a lesson here, lest it be forgotten that high school sports are supposed to supplement the athlete's education.
One day, these athletes will be applying for jobs. Many of these athletes will have their college degrees, but will find themselves competing against other applicants. Applicants cannot tell a company to not consider Ivy League graduates. They will either have to prove themselves to be the strongest candidate or lose out on that job position and look elsewhere.
It's better that the athletes learn this lesson now in a district or state playoff game than when they are 23 years old trying to find employment. Sometimes the playing field is not level. It's no one's fault, but sometimes one team's roster is restricted by geographical boundaries and the opponent’s roster is not. Sometimes the name of the college on Person A's resume does not open as many doors as the name of the college on Person B's diploma.
Let's use sports to teach athletes how to best approach difficult challenges. Athletes should learn how to overcome those challenges as often as possible, and also know how to cope when they do not.
David Bohr is a freelance writer for GameTimePA.com.
A. The Shippensburg football team scores two touchdowns in the last minute, adding a two-point conversion by Cameron Tinner on the last score, to defeat Bishop McDevitt, 29-28, in the District 3 Class 4A semifinals on Nov. 18.
B. On the same day, the Fairfield girls' soccer team ties a championship game record for goals scored in a 9-4 victory against Shady Side Academy in the PIAA Class 1A final, with Nora Clarke scoring four of the goals.
C. Turning back the clock the 1999 basketball season, Annville-Cleona's Mark Brandt makes three free throws with no time remaining to help the Dutchmen earn a 54-50 overtime win against Reading Central Catholic in the PIAA Class 2A quarterfinals, on the way to a state title.
The common thread that connects those moments? All were memorable playoff games in which public school teams defeated private school teams, moments that would not happen if Pennsylvania followed the lead of other states and held separate public and private postseason tournaments.
For years, critics have argued that the district and state playoffs should be separate. The playing field, they point out, is not even: Private schools can welcome players from anywhere, while public schools' rosters are limited to athletes within their school district's geographic borders.
Last month, retired Manheim Central football coach Mike Williams, who coached the Barons to 16 District 3 titles and one PIAA title, added his voice to the issue. Williams expressed his concerns over the current system on Twitter and in a story published in LNP, in which he advocated for separating the playoffs into public and private tournaments.
Critics who have called for such a split also point to a disparity in championship victories in the highest profile sports. Private schools make up only about a quarter of PIAA members, but private school teams won four of six football state titles in December, and six out of eight basketball state titles last March (boys and girls combined).
However, if there were separate playoffs, a price would have to be paid.
While there would still be memorable games and achievements, the perception of public schools' postseason achievements would be diminished.
For example, if the Fairfield girls' soccer team were the “PIAA Class 1A public school champion,” the extra qualifier gives the accomplishment less weight.
Adding the words “private school champion” might do that, too, but since the main reason given for separating the playoffs is because private schools have an advantage, more shine would come off of the public school's trophy than the private school's. The assumption would be that the private school champion is automatically better than the public school champion. It won't always be true, but there would be no way to settle the issue or crown one true champion.
Consider last season's basketball championships. In March, only two public schools won state titles, but they were remarkable victories. The Aliquippa boys' basketball team finished off an undefeated season by defeating Mastery Charter North, 68-49, in the PIAA Class 2A final. The Cumberland Valley girls' basketball team downed Cardinal O'Hara, 57-34, for its third straight Class 4A championship.
In a system of separate playoffs, Aliquippa and Cumberland Valley would not have been given the chance to take the floor and prove they were better than the private schools that they not only beat, but dominated, in their sport's biggest stage.
But there's a bigger reason to keep public and private schools united in one postseason, bigger than the perceived value of the championships. There is a lesson here, lest it be forgotten that high school sports are supposed to supplement the athlete's education.
One day, these athletes will be applying for jobs. Many of these athletes will have their college degrees, but will find themselves competing against other applicants. Applicants cannot tell a company to not consider Ivy League graduates. They will either have to prove themselves to be the strongest candidate or lose out on that job position and look elsewhere.
It's better that the athletes learn this lesson now in a district or state playoff game than when they are 23 years old trying to find employment. Sometimes the playing field is not level. It's no one's fault, but sometimes one team's roster is restricted by geographical boundaries and the opponent’s roster is not. Sometimes the name of the college on Person A's resume does not open as many doors as the name of the college on Person B's diploma.
Let's use sports to teach athletes how to best approach difficult challenges. Athletes should learn how to overcome those challenges as often as possible, and also know how to cope when they do not.
David Bohr is a freelance writer for GameTimePA.com.
Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
Wow!! Now that is a post! Very well written and researched! I agree! Life is not fair nor will it ever be fair! We need to teach kids this valuable principle and model perseverance daily. Get to work and overcome the obstacles young people and rejoice in the challenges ahead. I was always on the side of Public vs Public and Private vs Private but I have since changed my mind. We live in America and I spent six years in the Marines defending this awesome country... parents have the right to send their kids where they want to. God bless.
Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
The cry to separate public and private often confuses me because usually the same people calling it unfair are the same people ones up in arms about participation trophies. If you want to be a champion earn it, and when you do, relish in the fact that you can say you truly are the best in the state Pennsylvania. PIAA needs to actually enforce transfer rules (both public to private AND public to public), and the rest will take care of itself.
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billmurray
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Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
the above was from the Citizens Voice: http://citizensvoice.com/sports/pciaa-faded-away-41-years-ago-1.1829424
the second post from here: http://www.gametimepa.com/story/high-school/2017/01/04/piaa-playoffs-dont-split-public-private-postseasons-commentary/96090920/
the second post from here: http://www.gametimepa.com/story/high-school/2017/01/04/piaa-playoffs-dont-split-public-private-postseasons-commentary/96090920/
Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
Make privates play up using multipliers and end all the bitching about it. LOL!
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GoldenRamsFAN
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Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
What about all the 6a schools that wouldn't be able to play up? Teams like St Joes Prep PCC and others def have an unfair advantage when they are sending 15 kids to play D1 football year after year. How can a team like SC compete with them every year? Occasionally they will get lucky and beat them but for the most part the LARGER catholic schools are the ones that are next to impossible to beat, football and basketball especiallysay_oww wrote:Make privates play up using multipliers and end all the bitching about it. LOL!
Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
Agreed. But if you work harder than them you can beat them and feel proud! Hah, Like you said, when the number of D1 kids on a team is absurd....it's not going to happen. Pure talent will overcome will on almost all calendar days. I liked the getting a job analogy. It's much easier to get a job....when everything is in your favor. Not when you're starting with nothingGoldenRamsFAN wrote:What about all the 6a schools that wouldn't be able to play up? Teams like St Joes Prep PCC and others def have an unfair advantage when they are sending 15 kids to play D1 football year after year. How can a team like SC compete with them every year? Occasionally they will get lucky and beat them but for the most part the LARGER catholic schools are the ones that are next to impossible to beat, football and basketball especiallysay_oww wrote:Make privates play up using multipliers and end all the bitching about it. LOL!
If only closed minds came with closed mouths
Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
In the same aspect, a private beating a public for a championship takes away from the championship. I wouldn't mind if you had privates on one side of the bracket and public on the other. Then they could square off for intergalactic domination after being champion of their side of the bracket.
If only closed minds came with closed mouths
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GoldenRamsFAN
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Re: CC school board says split out the private schools
I'd be fine with publics on one side and privates/charters on the other, at least then the privates would beat up on one another