Message for who runs this website

[pats39]

money

theoretically, it should save money, since there would potential be less salaries to pay, especially
the facilities exist- dont have to build anything new, big possibility if the high schools are in close proximity . Many other factors of course.

[say_oww]

I don't mean to double-post, but this is just an excerpt of what I posted on a BC/Holy Name topic as it strayed in this direction...

IMO - the reason why this topic is so prevalent is that locally, the small private schools dominate when it comes to the playoffs. And since they are usually the only teams playing through November and December there is a lot of animosity, jealousy, frustration, denial, and passion. Seriously, this isn't an issue in Pittsburgh and Philly where the school districts are a lot bigger. However, it is huge in our neck of the woods, and this is my take on it...

******************************************************************************************************************************


The problem posed by PRIVATE SCHOOLS in the current PIAA ENROLLMENT-BASED PLAYOFF FORMAT is that the SUCCESSFUL private schools are essentially sports factories. (Yes, there are some private schools that stink.) And whether they recruit or not (???) many of the parents WHOSE CHILDREN PLAY SPORTS send them there so they can be a part of that program. While many of the kids who attend private school had parents who attended, many also have non-alumni parents who made the decision that when their kids were old enough they were not only going to attend a private school but PLAY SPORTS at a private school. You can argue this point all you want, but I am sure that everybody on this board has proof of such a situation. I personally know of three individuals who said before their kids were born that is where they would send their children, and for ATHLETIC reasons, not academic reasons. And where do you think they go to school now? Proof like that is all around us.

Also, if a parent/student isn't satisfied with anything (sports, academics, social status) at a public school, they can quickly transfer to a private school without any repercussions in regards to playing restrictions. We see examples of that all of the time as well.

Recruiting accusations are just white noise obscuring the real picture. Limitless boundaries and universal admissions like those stated above are the proof that PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE OVER SMALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS (Class A in Pennsylvania). I don't care if your private school graduates 60 kids, if 45 of them are there for football, or 5 or 6 for basketball, that is at least double the amount at any other small rural school like a WestPAC or Heritage school. And that is A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE.

The QUANDARY is that rather than admit they are wrong, the PIAA has an out that states that teams can ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION. So rather than address COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE ISSUES, the PIAA defers to the out clause that one would assume schools with HIGHER STANDARDS would ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION.

So, once again, THE BOTTOM LINE is that while many private schools laud themselves as institutions that have a higher standard when it comes to athletics, most of their track records prove otherwise. Athletics are intended to be competitions that emphasize above all other things - SPORTSMANSHIP. How sporting is it to dress a football team with 60 + players from three or four counties, embarass a small community school team, and then proclaim that you hold yourself to a HIGHER STANDARD??? Locally, the PUBLIC/PRIVATE DEBATE didn't blast McCort as much when they played AA. But when McCort agreed to drop down and PLAY WITHIN THE RULES, it really demonstrated what they were all about. I don't recall Forest Hills or Tyrone, or BA complaining about McCort being AA. Bishop Carroll was the target back then because they were dominating in Single A. Now both BM and BC are dominating Single A, and fans accordingly have them in their sites. When a public school dominates, there will be haters, just look at Portage or Windber in the WestPAC. But when a private school dominates small schools in football and especially basketball, the haters multiply exponentially because they perceive the PRIVATE SCHOOL COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE. How can any small school compete with endowments, private scholarship funds, alumni gifts and sponsorships???

And before you say anything else, I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG. Prove it to me, and everyone else on here what these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES are that make better athletes and allow for better consciences which say its ok to exploit the the rules as long as you do it in the name of a church or religion and by the way, within the rules. Or that it is acceptable to ridicule and taunt those who just want fairness??? Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

Again, I ask why don't these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES include SPORTSMANSHIP and FAIR PLAY and FAIR COMPETITION. I am sure a lot of the Catholics in the WestPAC and Heritage conferences would love to know what they are missing in their parishes and towns.

Otherwise, this debate will continue endlessly...

[shaman]

The problem posed by PRIVATE SCHOOLS in the current PIAA ENROLLMENT-BASED PLAYOFF FORMAT is that the SUCCESSFUL private schools are essentially sports factories.

Well I have no doubt that the debate will continue endlessly but let’s look at these football factories that you’ve been talking about.

Last time a private school won the state championship in single A was 1990 (Marin Catholic). Private schools have won exactly one state championship in single A in 22 years. Private schools have participated in the single A championship a total of 4 times. Southern Columbia alone has participated in the single A state championship 11 times and won it 5 times. Rochester has participated 6 times and won it 3 times.
In AA privates participated in a total of 9 championship games and have won 4 times in 22 years. Mt Carmel Area has participated in 5 championships in AA and was the state champion 4 times in 22 years. No private school has ever won A or AA more than once.

Honestly, I am not seeing your private school football factories here. However, I am seeing some public school ones. So we can talk about your perceived advantages all day long but it is simply not playing out in results over 22 years of state championship football in Pennsylvania.

The irony of all this is that if there was a separate state championship for private schools, BC would already have at least 2 state championships and likely more, instead of suffering beatdowns by Southern Columbia (49-20) or Southside Beaver (53-6). But you know what? They took their lumps, sucked it up and moved on. And now they’re back.

And as much as I hate to say it, I will be very surprised if they don’t suffer mightily at the hands of a public school come this weekend.

[oldcollegecoach/ath]

I don't mean to double-post, but this is just an excerpt of what I posted on a BC/Holy Name topic as it strayed in this direction...

IMO - the reason why this topic is so prevalent is that locally, the small private schools dominate when it comes to the playoffs. And since they are usually the only teams playing through November and December there is a lot of animosity, jealousy, frustration, denial, and passion. Seriously, this isn't an issue in Pittsburgh and Philly where the school districts are a lot bigger. However, it is huge in our neck of the woods, and this is my take on it...

******************************************************************************************************************************


The problem posed by PRIVATE SCHOOLS in the current PIAA ENROLLMENT-BASED PLAYOFF FORMAT is that the SUCCESSFUL private schools are essentially sports factories. (Yes, there are some private schools that stink.) And whether they recruit or not (???) many of the parents WHOSE CHILDREN PLAY SPORTS send them there so they can be a part of that program. While many of the kids who attend private school had parents who attended, many also have non-alumni parents who made the decision that when their kids were old enough they were not only going to attend a private school but PLAY SPORTS at a private school. You can argue this point all you want, but I am sure that everybody on this board has proof of such a situation. I personally know of three individuals who said before their kids were born that is where they would send their children, and for ATHLETIC reasons, not academic reasons. And where do you think they go to school now? Proof like that is all around us.

Also, if a parent/student isn't satisfied with anything (sports, academics, social status) at a public school, they can quickly transfer to a private school without any repercussions in regards to playing restrictions. We see examples of that all of the time as well.

Recruiting accusations are just white noise obscuring the real picture. Limitless boundaries and universal admissions like those stated above are the proof that PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE OVER SMALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS (Class A in Pennsylvania). I don't care if your private school graduates 60 kids, if 45 of them are there for football, or 5 or 6 for basketball, that is at least double the amount at any other small rural school like a WestPAC or Heritage school. And that is A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE.

The QUANDARY is that rather than admit they are wrong, the PIAA has an out that states that teams can ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION. So rather than address COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE ISSUES, the PIAA defers to the out clause that one would assume schools with HIGHER STANDARDS would ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION.

So, once again, THE BOTTOM LINE is that while many private schools laud themselves as institutions that have a higher standard when it comes to athletics, most of their track records prove otherwise. Athletics are intended to be competitions that emphasize above all other things - SPORTSMANSHIP. How sporting is it to dress a football team with 60 + players from three or four counties, embarass a small community school team, and then proclaim that you hold yourself to a HIGHER STANDARD??? Locally, the PUBLIC/PRIVATE DEBATE didn't blast McCort as much when they played AA. But when McCort agreed to drop down and PLAY WITHIN THE RULES, it really demonstrated what they were all about. I don't recall Forest Hills or Tyrone, or BA complaining about McCort being AA. Bishop Carroll was the target back then because they were dominating in Single A. Now both BM and BC are dominating Single A, and fans accordingly have them in their sites. When a public school dominates, there will be haters, just look at Portage or Windber in the WestPAC. But when a private school dominates small schools in football and especially basketball, the haters multiply exponentially because they perceive the PRIVATE SCHOOL COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE. How can any small school compete with endowments, private scholarship funds, alumni gifts and sponsorships???

And before you say anything else, I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG. Prove it to me, and everyone else on here what these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES are that make better athletes and allow for better consciences which say its ok to exploit the the rules as long as you do it in the name of a church or religion and by the way, within the rules. Or that it is acceptable to ridicule and taunt those who just want fairness??? Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

Again, I ask why don't these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES include SPORTSMANSHIP and FAIR PLAY and FAIR COMPETITION. I am sure a lot of the Catholics in the WestPAC and Heritage conferences would love to know what they are missing in their parishes and towns.

Otherwise, this debate will continue endlessly...

I don't mean to double post either. But I just want say owwww to hear my points because your points are confusing. There may be a competitive advantage to the catholic school system because other kids from other districts can play. WE GET IT!!!! But most of these schools are usually bigger than BC or BM... Despite popular belief in this region BC and BM aren't Woodland Hills, Aliquippa, Gateway, Clairton or Rochester. You constantly lose because of the culture of rationalizing loses by saying it isn't fair.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moral Compass?? What is this the special olympics?? BC and BM have always been small schools whose talent have consistently come through the paroachial league system (Catholic JR. Highs). Just like Portage Jr. High, Winber, Johnstown, Richland etc.. Your idea of moral compass is like a normal person playing a game of bball with a handicap person. The handicap person would be sure to lose so let him win so he is happy about himself.lol. Unfortunately this is a competitive sport where respect is earned NOT GIVEN away lil buddy. As a matter of fact w/o these "transfers" you speak of they would still be over or at least .500 consistently proof of the last 20+ yrs for BM. The kids that go to BC or BM mostly went to parochial schools their whole lifes even the ones that live in other school districts. So don't act like you or anyone on this site cares about these kid's moral compasses or upbringing or education. As if these HS don't play with class or something like they are spiking the ball or giving it up to crowd after first downs. As a matter of fact I vividly remember being punished instantly in HS for not showing sportsmanship. But you say all this for what?? So the handicap paper champion Westpac and Heritage teams can feel better about themselves and be GIVEN a chance to play in the state playoffs. If these teams won against BM or BC I'm confident Respect would be given on the spot. So as we have it now a bunch of overrated traditional bottom dwellers and unproven teams come on this site and rationalize lack of production by whinning and being unrealistic. The PIAA isn't going to cater to a bunch of paper champions who don't have a fighting chance at competing statewide anyway.lol. If they did have a chance statewide BC or BM wouldn't be that big of an issue. Maybe your respective conferences should start earlier with their future kids. BM and BC kids start playing football in 4th grade in a well organized competitive paroachial league system. And all you ppl on here at public schools that think the education is better b/c they pay their teachers more or b/c the facilities are new are dilusional. There is a reason why it cost money to go to a private school... When I was coaching a kid that went to a catholic HS with a 2.0 would be like a 2.5 at a public school scale for the NCAA clearinghouse. And that is a fact b/c I was in this situation when I finished HS.

[pats39]

the reason it costs money to go to catholic schools is because they dont get government funding per se, not because they are some how educational advanced. Usually the budget is so tight the small Catholic schools can not be as technologically advanced as the good public schools, and certainly can not hire the cream of the crop teachers.

[Username6]

I don't mean to double-post, but this is just an excerpt of what I posted on a BC/Holy Name topic as it strayed in this direction...

IMO - the reason why this topic is so prevalent is that locally, the small private schools dominate when it comes to the playoffs. And since they are usually the only teams playing through November and December there is a lot of animosity, jealousy, frustration, denial, and passion. Seriously, this isn't an issue in Pittsburgh and Philly where the school districts are a lot bigger. However, it is huge in our neck of the woods, and this is my take on it...

******************************************************************************************************************************


The problem posed by PRIVATE SCHOOLS in the current PIAA ENROLLMENT-BASED PLAYOFF FORMAT is that the SUCCESSFUL private schools are essentially sports factories. (Yes, there are some private schools that stink.) And whether they recruit or not (???) many of the parents WHOSE CHILDREN PLAY SPORTS send them there so they can be a part of that program. While many of the kids who attend private school had parents who attended, many also have non-alumni parents who made the decision that when their kids were old enough they were not only going to attend a private school but PLAY SPORTS at a private school. You can argue this point all you want, but I am sure that everybody on this board has proof of such a situation. I personally know of three individuals who said before their kids were born that is where they would send their children, and for ATHLETIC reasons, not academic reasons. And where do you think they go to school now? Proof like that is all around us.

Also, if a parent/student isn't satisfied with anything (sports, academics, social status) at a public school, they can quickly transfer to a private school without any repercussions in regards to playing restrictions. We see examples of that all of the time as well.

Recruiting accusations are just white noise obscuring the real picture. Limitless boundaries and universal admissions like those stated above are the proof that PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE OVER SMALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS (Class A in Pennsylvania). I don't care if your private school graduates 60 kids, if 45 of them are there for football, or 5 or 6 for basketball, that is at least double the amount at any other small rural school like a WestPAC or Heritage school. And that is A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE.

The QUANDARY is that rather than admit they are wrong, the PIAA has an out that states that teams can ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION. So rather than address COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE ISSUES, the PIAA defers to the out clause that one would assume schools with HIGHER STANDARDS would ELECT TO PLAY UP IN CLASSIFICATION.

So, once again, THE BOTTOM LINE is that while many private schools laud themselves as institutions that have a higher standard when it comes to athletics, most of their track records prove otherwise. Athletics are intended to be competitions that emphasize above all other things - SPORTSMANSHIP. How sporting is it to dress a football team with 60 + players from three or four counties, embarass a small community school team, and then proclaim that you hold yourself to a HIGHER STANDARD??? Locally, the PUBLIC/PRIVATE DEBATE didn't blast McCort as much when they played AA. But when McCort agreed to drop down and PLAY WITHIN THE RULES, it really demonstrated what they were all about. I don't recall Forest Hills or Tyrone, or BA complaining about McCort being AA. Bishop Carroll was the target back then because they were dominating in Single A. Now both BM and BC are dominating Single A, and fans accordingly have them in their sites. When a public school dominates, there will be haters, just look at Portage or Windber in the WestPAC. But when a private school dominates small schools in football and especially basketball, the haters multiply exponentially because they perceive the PRIVATE SCHOOL COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE. How can any small school compete with endowments, private scholarship funds, alumni gifts and sponsorships???

And before you say anything else, I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG. Prove it to me, and everyone else on here what these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES are that make better athletes and allow for better consciences which say its ok to exploit the the rules as long as you do it in the name of a church or religion and by the way, within the rules. Or that it is acceptable to ridicule and taunt those who just want fairness??? Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

Again, I ask why don't these HIGHER STANDARDS and VALUES include SPORTSMANSHIP and FAIR PLAY and FAIR COMPETITION. I am sure a lot of the Catholics in the WestPAC and Heritage conferences would love to know what they are missing in their parishes and towns.

Otherwise, this debate will continue endlessly...

I think post this demonstrates a need to be concise. You could/should chop this down to a few words:
"I like to SEE myself TALKKKKKKKK".

Shaman, love the facts dude!

[guiness]

Yes, they do not get any federal or state money. This way they don't have to teach some of the crap that is being pushed at students!!!!!!!!!!

[shaman]

the reason it costs money to go to catholic schools is because they dont get government funding per se, you talk like that's a bad thing!not because they are some how educational advanced. Usually the budget is so tight the small Catholic schools can not be as technologically advanced as the good public schools, and certainly can not hire the cream of the crop teachers.

You’d be surprised about teachers. First of all there is a teacher surplus in Pennsylvania, so it is quite possible to get good teachers who are willing to take less salary. But more importantly there appear to be three types of teachers at Bishop Carroll 1) extremely religious teachers who wouldn’t teach anywhere else regardless of the money, 2) teachers who’s family income permits them to teach in situations where there are far fewer discipline issues, families are more invested (I mean that in all ways, not just money), and who really have no desire to go to public school and put up with all the crap that public school teachers have to deal with on a regular basis and 3) young teachers who are trying to score their first job and will jump at the first chance they get to a public school position. The ratio changes somewhat but it has been pretty stable over the years at least at BC. Their percentage of teachers with master’s degrees at BC is equal to or higher than most schools in the area (if that means anything).

You are correct in that there are many schools who have far better technology and far nicer facilities, but when you look at the final product: students, BC holds its own. It sends kids to Rutgers, Temple, William and Mary, the Military Academies and of course UPJ and St. Francis. They have turned out more than their share of doctors, architects, and teachers: many who return to BC to teach because they liked it so much there.

Don’t be so sold on higher pay and nicer physical facilities. Teaching is still teaching. I was a teacher, consultant, and administrator in public education for 35 years and I saw plenty of burnout teachers in public schools who were hanging on for the paycheck in a situation that they absolutely hated. A good friend of mine was the principal in a very large junior high school in Cambria County and he once said: there are three types of teachers: the superstars who can do anything with nothing, the needy who can do the job but always need this that or some other thing, and the walking dead. He was quoted in the Tribune Democrat and caught a lot of flak for that, but I agree with him. The bottom line is that there are all types of teachers public and private, and salary is not a particularly good predictor of success. School climate is a great predictor of success and that is far less tangible.

And how do I know about Bishop Carroll? My wife taught there for 19 years and yes she has a master’s degree, has taught college courses, and was an instructor at the Pennsylvania Governor’s School for the Arts for four years. And she has said many times she would never consider teaching anyplace else.

[guiness]

Shaman- superb letter. Both my kids got a excellent education on Huskie Hill. One is a college grad and the other is attending a local college. I cannot say enough about this Fabulous school!

[usatf oldguy]

Actually Shaman your facts aren't quite on the money.Scotland school won the last private football title in single A.That would make 2 titles in 22 years,and 5 championship appearances.The numbers in district 6 championships paint quite a different picture also.