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I think Joe Wilson should be lauded for having the courage to speak out.....SOMEONE HAS TO STAND UP TO THE LIES: Now there is more "fact checking" on statements made by Obama who tries to cast himself in the role of truth-teller, combating “bogus claims” and “misinformation” about his big government health care plan. “If you misrepresent what’s in the plan, we will call you out,” Obama warned his critics.

According to the Associated Press, after "fact-checking", it found that Obama was doing as some stretching of the truth himself:

the President uttered “a variety of oversimplifications and omissions,” and used “only-in Washington accounting” to claim his plan would not add “one dime” to the deficit.
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AP cited excerpts such as:

President Barack Obama used only-in-Washington accounting Wednesday when he promised to overhaul the nation's health care system without adding "one dime" to the deficit. By conventional arithmetic, Democratic plans would drive up the deficit by billions of dollars.

he president's speech to Congress contained a variety of oversimplifications and omissions in laying out what he wants to do about health insurance.

A look at some of Obama's claims and how they square with the facts or the fuller story:

* OBAMA: "Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."
* THE FACTS: That's correct, as far as it goes. But neither can the plan guarantee that people can keep their current coverage. Employers sponsor coverage for most families, and they'd be free to change their health plans in ways that workers may not like, or drop insurance altogether. The Congressional Budget Office analyzed the health care bill written by House Democrats and said that by 2016 some 3 million people who now have employer-based care would lose it because their employers would decide to stop offering it.
* In the past Obama repeatedly said, "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan, period." Now he's stopping short of that unconditional guarantee by saying nothing in the plan "requires" any change.

* OBAMA: "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. ... That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."
* THE FACTS: Obama and congressional Democrats want to pay for their health care plans in part by reducing Medicare payments to providers by more than $500 billion over 10 years....Although wasteful spending in Medicare is widely acknowledged, many experts believe some seniors almost certainly would see reduced benefits from the cuts. That's particularly true for the 25 percent of Medicare users covered through Medicare Advantage.

* OBAMA: Requiring insurance companies to cover preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies "makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."
* THE FACTS: Studies have shown that much preventive care ­ particularly tests like the ones Obama mentions ­ actually costs money instead of saving it....


Will Wilson's outburst calling attention to Obama's lies encourage some of the other media that has been ignoring them to start paying attention to them? It appears that over 51% of the American population caught on to him and the contradictions in his speeches many months ago.

The Federation for American Immigration Reform, called FAIR note that illegal immigrants would be permitted to purchase insurance on the national health insurance exchange because the bill does not include a mechanism for verifying citizenship. So illegal immigrants would have the chance to purchase insurance in the public option, a government-run health care plan that would offer basic coverage at a low price.

FAIR also argues for more robust verification measures for the affordability credit and making sure that illegal immigrant parents won't be able to receive coverage if their citizen children are eligible.

FAIR has a point that illegal immigrants would likely be able to buy insurance on the national health insurance exchange....after researching - there is nothing in the bills that would hinder that. A Congressional Research Service report issued Aug. 25, 2009, confirmed this observation. The House bill "does not contain any restrictions on non-citzens participating in the Exchange — whether the non-citizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently," the report said.

You break this down & they’re technically not eligible, maybe.....but their eligibility probably won’t be verified. And Dems have rejected amendments to require verification. (Illegal immigrants aren’t technically eligible for jobs either, but they get them.)

“ObamaCare is all about rationing,” says one of Obama’s own advisers, Martin Feldstein. Feldstein earlier noted that Obama’s health-care plan would harm people with insurance, and massively raise taxes.

Fact-checkers say Obama is lying about health-care. Obama often contradicts himself. In the very same speech, Obama claimed that Medicare is “unsustainable” and “running out of money,” then contradicted himself by claiming that “Medicare is a government program that works really well,” making it a model for national health-care.

Feldstein, a Harvard professor, warns that “For the 85 percent of Americans who already have health insurance, the Obama health plan is bad news. It means higher taxes, less health care and no protection if they lose their current insurance because of unemployment or early retirement.” Obama’s plan would “cost more than $1 trillion,” and raise the top federal “income-tax rate from 35 percent today to more than 45 percent,” he notes.

As a CNN commentary noted, Obama’s plan would take away “5 freedoms,” including the freedom to choose your doctors, the freedom to choose what’s in your plan, the freedom to keep your existing plan, the freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, and the freedom to choose high-deductible coverage.

Last bit of homework for you:

Read the Bill- who is lying ?

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED! (We all knew this, because health care is rationed in Canada and Britain, but Obama kept saying it would not be).

Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You will have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Government will ration your Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between $251k & $400k who don’t provide public option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans’ finances and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors – doesn’t matter what specialty – will all be paid the same.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

PG 268 Sec 1141 Federal Government regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable re-admissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors who treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission - Government will penalize you.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures which of course forces health care rationing.

vman wrote:I think Joe Wilson should be lauded for having the courage to speak out.....SOMEONE HAS TO STAND UP TO THE LIES:

So you commend congressman's Wilson's lack of civility? He certainly can argue Obama's plan and comments, but do you believe that was the right place and time to do it? As a military man he should know that you do not call your superior officer a liar, not just to his face, but in front of millions of people. I support your right to disagree with the president, but supporting such behavior will only encourage a repeat performance. I really do not want to see our congress turn into the shouting matches that take place in some other countries.

The right place to do it???? Why was there even a joint session on national TV for what Obama had to say. A little grandstanding to start with, don't you think?

once a runner wrote:you do not call your superior officer a liar, not just to his face, but in front of millions of people. I support your right to disagree with the president, but supporting such behavior will only encourage a repeat performance. I really do not want to see our congress turn into the shouting matches that take place in some other countries.

First of all, what was Barry doing giving a totally unrepresentative speech about the details of this bill in front of a joint session is a very pertinent question...he is in campaign/Alinsky mode....facts do not matter! You ignore every point I make in initial post of this thread & focus on the honest reaction of a courageous man......how about your whole party booing Bush in 2005? That apparently was ok? Was not grabbed & highlighted by the MSM was it?? And Bush had legitimate concerns about the fate of Social Security! Couple of questions: Has Harry Reid never apologized for calling Bush a liar.? Has anybody demanded Jack Murtha apologize for accepting the charge that the Marines at Haditha were cold-blooded murderers? Has anybody made John Kerry apologize for calling the troops in Iraq terrorizing women and children in their homes at night? We've had eight years of some of the most demeaning, dispiriting, despicable filth that came out of the mouths of Democrats.

I think al ot can be done without twisting hidden agendas (AS BARRY IS DOING)...NO ONE is saying preserve the status quo. We are saying we want TORT REFORM, we want INTERSTATE ACCESS to health insurance, we want SOME REGULATION and STRICT OVERSIGHT of insurance company tactics, we want them to DETECT, INVESTIGATE, and ELIMINATE the fraud, corruption, and inefficiencies in the current social programs of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, VA Services, and all social programs and agencies currently operating. We want Congress and the President to THROW THEIR SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS UNDER THE BUS, and actually do something for the American citizens, for a CHANGE WE CAN SUPPORT. Stop protecting those big supporters of your re-election, who promise you the means to increase YOUR OWN wealth and power. Show some integrity in doing the job the people have elected you to do.

So if insurance companies sell across state line, who will then regulate them? What is to stop the companies relocating to a state with lax regulatory authority? You do not trust the federal govenment to do anything correct? Look where all the credit company have relocated to, Deleware. Why, little or no oversight by the state.

Its only because he is black and we are all racist if we don't agree with him lol

vman wrote: First of all, what was Barry doing giving a totally unrepresentative speech about the details of this bill in front of a joint session is a very pertinent question...

I'm pretty sure as the POTUS he has the right to speak to the American people any time he wants. You don't have to watch.

You ignore every point I make in initial post of this thread & focus on the honest reaction of a courageous man.

Every point YOU make? Tell me you didn't copy and paste that? You didn't even write the comments written after the HC bill quotes. At least give credit where credit is due. (Perhaps this looks familiar??? http://www.rense.com/general87/hpla.htm ) A courageous man? Breaking the rules of the congress and calling your commander in chief a liar in front of millions is now considered courageous?

how about your whole party booing Bush in 2005? That apparently was ok?

that was not OK. I don't defend my party when they behave poorly... the same goes for Murtha for not apologizing. Why is it so hard for anyone on the right to admit what Joe Wilson did was WRONG?? I thought you guys were sticklers about following the rules?

And Bush had legitimate concerns about the fate of Social Security!

Maybe so, but what he was really trying to do was open up the government treasure chest to his corporate buddies. Can you imagine the backlash if social security was tied into the stock market as it plummeted from 14,000 to 7,000 over the last year of Bush's presidency? I think we should all be grateful to the democrats for stopping that proposal.

NO ONE is saying preserve the status quo.

So you make this list of all the things you WANT. Now tell me, if the republicans truly wanted this as you say, where was the legislation to fix things between 2001 and 2006? Why was there no TORT reform or interstate access given while they could have made a difference? It's all talk....it's just the lesser of evils in their book. One would have to be delusional to think that that republicans in congress actually want any health care reform.

I've heard a lot of talk about how the democrats are ruining the future of their kids and grandkids with massive deficits and terrible health care. I didn't hear one peep from you when Bush and his cohorts doubled the federal deficit and the left the economy in ruins after 8 years. If health care continues to go unregulated can you imagine how much a family plan will cost your kids and grandkids in 20 years? Health care costs have risen 130% in the last 10 years (3 times the rate of wages). The system cannot be sustained and when the republicans had a chance to fix it they did nothing. Forgive my skepticism about what the republicans WANT to do for health care.

Getting like your role models, crying about the past & picking on obscure detail......you want to throw deficit figures around? Here's some visual aide:





Barry has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term. But as Heritage analyst Brian Riedl has pointed out, given that Obama has already helped quadruple the deficit with his stimulus package, pledging to halve it by 2013 is hardly ambitious.

What’s driving Obama’s unprecedented massive deficits? Spending:

* President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
* President Bush began a string of expensive finan­cial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
* President Bush created a Medicare drug entitle­ment that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new govern­ment health care fund.
* President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. Presi­dent Obama would double it.
* President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already in­creased this spending by 20 percent.
* President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.

* President Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in the public debt through 2008. In 2009 add an additional $2.6 trillion in public debt, President Obama’s budget would add another $4.9 trillion in public debt from the beginning of 2010 through 2016. That would total 7.5 trillion from 2009!

The numbers above do include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years.

Overall, President Obama’s budget would add more than twice as much debt as President Bush over the same number of years.