John P. "Jack" Murtha

[Pale Rider]

aeosman- that's why there is a FOX network. That's why there's a Sean Hannity, a Michael Savage, a Rush Limbaugh, a Glenn Beck, a Neal Bortz, etc. Public talk radio can counter the liberal spin of major media TV and Radio. Marty Radovanic makes me sick. The anti-war Democrats (Nancy Pelosi, George Soros, Michael Moore whack-job party wing) cozied up to Murtha because of his position in the military appropriations committee and put the squeeze play on him, so he had to cave to their opinion. He HAD to say something to appease his "brothers and sisters" in Congress.

[once a runner]

Here is a transcriptof what Murtha said on his "Meet the Press" appearance last week. He answers many of the aforementioned questions and then some.

Murtha's plan has the US troops redeploying the periphery (out of the main areas of fighting). He makes a good point in saying that. as long as we're there, the Iraqi's are going to expect us to do the fighting. It's sounds very much like what some say about welfare....as long as you give them the money, there is no reason to work for it.

He admits that he changed his mind about the war and he explains why. When asked why his opinion changed even from 1 year ago, here is what he said:

REP. MURTHA: I'll tell you why it's different. It's different because there's no progress at all. When I went to Iraq about two months ago, I talked to the commanders. Now, I--the commanders say what they're supposed to say, but I can tell how discouraged they are.

It is possible to change ones mind on an issue. I think it was Einstein who said this about insanity....to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I'd rather have a leader who changes his mind when the current plan isn't working.

Maybe someone can explain to me how leaving Vietnam when we did hurt the U.S.? By the way, who was president when pulled out of Vietnam? And pulling out of Somalia....even Bush said that he does not favor military involvement there. Although, according to what Bush said after the 9/11 attacks, it would be a prime target. They have ties to Al Qaeda and they do harbor terrorists. They have no government to speak of right now.

How many Al Qaeda attacks have taken place outside of Iraq since the war started? There is Jordan, Spain, Indonesia, London, Yemen, Riyadh, etc. .... maybe if we were taking out terrorists cells instead of involved in a civil war, some of these attacks could have been averted?

[LionPride]

[quote="once a runner";p="112273"]By the way, who was president when pulled out of Vietnam?[/quote]

Granted, I was just a twinkle in my Daddy's eye when that war ended, so I'm just going off history lessons here. But I don't believe there were very many conservatives riding down to DC in the Volkswagon vans to stage all those protests, calling our soldiers baby killers. I don't believe it was a conservative that met with Communist North Vietnam in France and sat upon an enemy tank calling our involvement against North Vietnam criminal. I don't believe it was the conservatives embolding the enemy to keep fighting because they may have been losing the battle on the ground, but were winning the war in public opinion. Ever wonder how many additional American lives were lost because of that? Ever wonder if terrorist are employing that exact strategy today? You know, I could be mistaken, but I don't believe I am.

[D-nice]

well said lp.

[Pale Rider]

DITTO!

[once a runner]

No doubt most of the Vietnam protesters were liberals. Although there was a well organized group of veterans who fought in the war who were big protesters as well. Keep in mind we were in Vietnam for over 10 years. There was public support for the war well into 1969 (over 70% approved of Nixon's handling of the war), but by 1971 that had fallen to 34%. With an election on the horizon, he began to withdraw more and more troops. That was enough to appease the public and Nixon won easily in 1972.

I still want to know why our withdrawal from that war was a big mistake? Also, what proof is there that the US public opinion has anything to do with how the opposition fights a war? What proof is there that it had anything to do with Vietnam? After 5 years of fighting do you think the Commuists were just about to give up when they said, "hey, the US is protesting, let's keep going!"

It will be chaos in Iraq when we leave, whether that is in 6 months or 6 years. The communists waited us out for over 10 years in Vietnam. The Islamic militants have been around a long time and their hatred for the US runs deep. My guess is they will wait us out in Iraq as well. One thing we'll never know until we leave is how badly the Iraqi people want their own freedom. If they don't want to fight for it themselves, our presence is nothing more than a temporary fix.

[southpaw]

Looks like OAR needs a history lesson. Not the revisionist history the liberals would have you believe but the gods honest truth if you can handle it..

The Tet Offensive in '68 was an utter military disaster for the Vietcong and the NVA but the communist leadership was shocked to find out that the press was reporting not a great victory for the Americans but a bloody defeat and that the war was far from over. Watler Kronkite wass saying " the war was now "unwinnable". Kind of familiar huh? Kind of reminscent of the current situation where the terrorists in Iraq haven't won a battle but the the liberal press keeps hammering home that we can't win the war. Anyway after Tet the commies never launched another offensive on the scale of Tet because they reconned that they were better off to outlast the Americans and hang on and the American press would keep misinforming the American people and they would get tired of the protracted situation. Which is just what happened. Thanks Walter your a real American hero!

[once a runner]

Southpaw, I'm not disputing your timeline....it's absolutely correct. The Americans were successful in the TET offensive and then Cronkite followed up with his opinion. However, that does show that I was revising history. I stated facts about America's opinions....my source.. It states these facts:

October 1969 - An opinion poll indicates 71 percent of Americans approve of President Nixon's Vietnam policy

March 1971 - Opinion polls indicate Nixon's approval rating among Americans has dropped to 50 percent, while approval of his Vietnam strategy has slipped to just 34 percent. Half of all Americans polled believe the war in Vietnam to be "morally wrong."

It may not have been so much as the North Vietnamese waiting out the US, but when China threw their support behind them, that would be tough to overcome.

March 10, 1971 - China pledges complete support for North Vietnam's struggle against the U.S.

And again, to say only liberals were against Vietnam is wrong. Ronald Reagan said this in 1967:

August 18, 1967 - California Governor Ronald Reagan says the U.S. should get out of Vietnam citing the difficulties of winning a war when "too many qualified targets have been put off limits to bombing."

I'll ask again, why was our withdrawal from Vietnam a big mistake? Would it have been worthwhile to continue fighting and possibly getting into it with China?

[Pale Rider]

I personally feel Nixon started to slip in the polls about the time the DRAFT was implemented. Early 1970. If you didn't have a wife and a kid or 2, or a student deferment, you were going to get drafted. Other options out: medical disqualifications or enlistment in another branch of the military. I chose the National Guard, just like GW. No problem for me there. I chose to serve in SOME capacity, and not run away to Canada! At that time, the NG was a basically strictly stateside deployment, because we had a few million servicemen in all the branches, and didn't need their deployment overseas, unlike now. I didn't believe in the Vietnam fiasco either, but didn't have all the facts and people couldn't tell me anything either. Amazing what the maturation process will do. If the next implementation of a draft starts, just watch how fast whoever is President's #'s will plummet!

[aeosman]

I didn't run either Pale Rider. I served. I saw the world and boy did I kiss the ground when I got home. I spotted an interesting irony in my travels.
I joined the Navy Seabees and was in school out in Calif. when the draft ended. the Nam was winding down. That didn't stop them from sending 23 out of my class of 25 to Nam. I on the other hand was in for a different experience.
I was assigned to a Naval Communication in Asmara Ethiopia. It was an interesting dime in Ethiopia. They were in a civil war with the Eritrians and Hail Salassie was the emperor. In the city of Asmara, all things new were named after the Emperor. There was the Hail Salassie Library, the Hail Salassie Airport, and the Haile Sallassie Airport. Keep in mind that Ethiopia was not a democracy.
Does any of this sound familiar?????
I was there when the Emperor was overthrown and it was time for the Americans to pull out. That communications station was replaced by one that I helped to build on the island of Diego Garcia which was my last and final assignment. There was Okinawa and Naval Air Station Bermuda in between.
I never forgot the futility of the people in Ethiopia. It was a backward place and still is and always will be as long as the Govt. claims to provide all that is good.
Everyone in this country should be required to visit a place like that to see what it means to really have nothing. It is with a heavy heart that I watch the nightly news anymore.