israel and america vs. world

[El-Moldo]

Should everybody be allowed to have nuclear weapons? Even the great philosopher Prince could forsee the problems with this in the future when in 1982 he wrote the lyrics to "1999". "Everybody's got a bomb, we could all die anyday". Yes, even he could see it coming. Why can't the rest of you?

[The Ancient Enemy]

Analyst, I'm not calling for the US to distribute nukes to Australia and Mexico. That's not what I meant.

[vman]

I do feel further confrontation is inevitable; as I noted previously in this thread: "According to a very senior military source, Israel is still hoping that an international effort will stop a nuclear Iran; if that fails, then Israel is hoping for an American attack. But if the Bush administration is too weakened to take on Iran, then, as a last resort, Israel will have to act unilaterally. And Israel has the operational capability to do so.
For Israelis, that is the worst scenario of all. Except, of course, the scenario of nuclear weapons in the hands of the patron state of Hezbollah and Hamas.".....well here is more to contemplate:

One must consider that this Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a serious nut-ball & was previously a member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards & worked for some time as an executioner in the notorious Evin Prison, where thousands of political prisoners were executed in the bloody purges of the 1980s.

Iran may preparing for an apocalyptic "end of time” – and it could come as soon as August 22. Evidence points to the connection between that date, when Ahmadinejad said his country would respond to Western demands regarding Iran’s nuclear program, and a possible attack on Israel.
August 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the night when Muhammad flew first to "the farthest mosque” – usually identified with Jerusalem – and then to heaven and back. This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary the world.

There is also an intriguing reason why the Iranians might not fret at all about an Israeli counterstrike – even with nuclear weapons.
What deterred both sides from using nuclear weapons during the Cold War was the concept of MAD, mutual assured destruction. But the "apocalyptic worldview” of Iran’s current leaders works against that concept. Ahmadinejad is a strong believer in the Shiite tradition of a 12th imam, the so-called "hidden” Imam Mahdi who Allah has miraculously kept alive since his disappearance in 874 A.D....
Shiites believe Imam Mahdi will return at a time of great global chaos – and the Web site Zionist.com states: "Ahmadinejad sees himself as Allah’s instrument to pave the way for Imam Mahdi.”
Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now.
The phrase "Allah will know his own” explains why Iran might be willing to usher in the apocalypse even if it means the death of many Muslims.
It means that while infidel, i.e., non-Muslim, victims will go to a well-deserved punishment in hell, Muslims will be sent straight to heaven, enjoying the rewards without the struggles of martyrdom. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement.”

It is far from certain that Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22, but it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.
And in the long term, the best hope of staving off an Iranian-spurred conflagration is to appeal to those Muslims, Iranians, Arabs and others who do not share these apocalyptic perceptions and aspirations, and feel as much threatened, indeed even more threatened, than we are.

More to consider:

Former Israeli deputy defense minister retired Maj. Gen. Efraim Sneh has been warning about the Hezbollah buildup in south Lebanon for many years, and opposed his government's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000. "I said we shouldn't withdraw, because Hezbollah rockets would bring us back to invade Lebanon, and require a big ground operation to clean up. That's what we are doing right now" "Since 1993 I have been warning that Iran is the only enemy that poses an existential threat to Israel"

The current war in Lebanon was actually a war by Iran against Israel, he believes.

"I don't have any doubt that after this round is over, there will be another round, because the war with Iran is not over.
In speeches and writings over the past six years, Sneh predicted in detail the scenario that has played itself out between Hezbollah and Israel over the past four weeks.
"But I don't know the scenario for round 2 or round 3," he said. "I just know that they will come."
Asked how the current round of fighting in Lebanon would end, he replied: "slow and tough."
Sneh has traveled repeatedly to Washington over the past 13 years with other Knesset members from different parties, to warn about Iran's threat to Israel and America.
He believes Iran would use nuclear weapons if it acquired them.

When you have the president of the world's fourth largest oil supplier preaching repeatedly that Israel should be wiped off the map, a collision is unavoidable!!

[The Ancient Enemy]

I'm starting to get the impression that a lot of us are on the same page with some of this stuff.

I also brought up the concept of mutually assured destruction. What I see as the main problem with taking nukes away from people (or telling them they cant start nuclear programs) is the simple fact that WE will still have them. If we are the only people to have them, dont you see how this is a problem for the rest of the world? Who are we to play god on earth, or is your god really just American muscle? Something to ponder, folks. It is all going to come out in the wash: taking a role like that creates a global dictatorship which creates tremendous animosity. Do you really want that?

Here is an article that answers a lot of the questions you guys have posed to me. Take special note of the chart.

[web]http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... emID=10721[/web]

[TheAnalyst]

I think the proper thing to do though is for us, and the world, to get rid of nuclear weapons, not allow more nations to have them. Once they have them it will be impossible to get them back.

[vman]

Same Page??? Don't count me in with this liberal, leftist, lying, socialist, anti-semitic garbage!!

You & these Islamofacist sympathizers continue to ignore the fact that the Hezbohs are an identified terrorist org(even recognized as such by the UN).

And your noted chart, which is highly innacurate, was verified by: "based on reports from UN observers at the border." How in the h3ll does one report on attacks/damage within Israel from "@ the border"....& your wonderful UN observers were actually commissioned into Lebanon to disarm the Hezbohs; uhh, good job fellas!!!

HERE ARE EVENTS THAT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE:

Between May 2000 and June 2006, Hezbollah carried out the following attacks against Israel: 111 anti-aircraft attacks, 42 anti-tank missile attacks, 28 Katyusha rocket attacks, 16 infiltration attempts, 11 explosive device attacks, and nine shooting attacks.

On 7 October 2000, less than five months after Israel’s withdrawal, Hezbollah terrorists crossed the border, bombed an Israeli patrol vehicle and kidnapped three IDF soldiers. The bodies of the soldiers were brought back to Israel only in January 2004.

Although Hezbollah has been under international pressure to disarm, it has refused to do so and instead stockpiled at least 13,000 missiles. Hence, it remains the largest, most powerful armed force in Lebanon.
Hezbollah has been actively involved in working with and supporting Hamas. In 2001, Jordan arrested three members of Hezbollah, who were caught attempting to smuggle Katyusha rockets into the West Bank.

Here is another quote from your posted article: "In June 2002 Hezbollah anti-aircraft fire wounded two Israeli civilians, and on August 10, 2003, killed a teenage boy and injured four other civilians. Hezbollah stopped anti-aircraft fire in mid-2004" UHH, that data is not listed on your chart!!

And I love this(make terrorist look good):
"the simplest way for Israel to stop the rockets that are now hitting its population is to accept a ceasefire. Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, has declared that his organization would stop firing its rockets if Israel stopped its air-raids."

Translation - we underestimated the Israeli response & resolve to do something about the Hezbohs this time & realize they are going to disarm us themselves; something our host country chose not to do!

[The Ancient Enemy]

Yeah, that "terrorist" tag has really lost its luster since people keep throwing it around. It's like a swear word that loses impact after excessive use.

You do know that Hezbollah is a legimate part of the Lebanese government, right? They DO have members in the legislature. If they are labeled terrorists, with that being said, how is every country not a terrorist nation? Especially Israel.

Speaking of that, Israel has therefore captured and executed state officials from another nation. Do you want to get technical about this stuff?

You CANNOT hide behind rules and laws when it benefits you, and then say "well, Hezbollah is a terrorist outfit and needs to be eliminated". That's hypocrisy, my friend. You can't have it both ways. You know why? Because Isarael is already the lone, allowed exception!

Any time you are critical of Israel you are automatically an anti-semite or an "ISLAMOFASCIST".

Translation - we underestimated the Israeli response & resolve to do something about the Hezbohs this time & realize they are going to disarm us themselves; something our host country chose not to do!

I dont think anyone "underestimated" Israel. They've shown that they need to make everyone aware that they have something to prove to the world, time and time again.

The big underestimation is going to be when teh Arab world starts backing Lebanon. Israel blew up a bridge today on the Syrian border. Syria said they are ready to go to work. So we'll see how that plays out. Hopefully Israel won't use poison gas and clusterbombs on civilians in Syria like they do in Lebanon.

Maybe vman can lead the McCort Volunteers when his friends in the Knesset get us dragged into a war. When OUR national guard is over there defending someone else, maybe we can dig up my dead cat and dead grandfather to protect Americans, since our NATIONAL GUARD isn't allowed to do it.

[TheAnalyst]

So what then defines a terrorist organization? Is it not enough that they are willing to kill anyone to achieve their goals, even their own? That they do not participate in the international community or follow international law? The Taliban was part of the Afghan gov't. Being part of gov't legitimizes them? Please define terrorists as I am very curious.

Let me guess. WE are the terrorists.

Why are you so willing to give these organizations the benefit of the doubt yet question everything our own government does?

[Xylo]

I think he's trying to get a job with the main stream media ... he's certainly singing to their choir.

[The Ancient Enemy]

I'm asking YOU what a terrorist is. Wont you kill for your own beliefs, Analyst?

Hezbollah is a recognized part of Lebanon in the sense that they do have people in the government. Remember: Lebanon is a largely Christian nation, not Islamic. If those people are in the government, then why is it okay for Israel to bomb the govt, and capture and execute govt officials? If anyone else did that, there'd surely be no exceptions made, like there are, every second, for the Israelis.

Apparently Xylo, who reads the thread but never has anything to say, is seeing a whole lot more Lebanese support in the world than what I am. The only nations who are speaking out against Israel are the Arabs and Venezuela, as far as I have seen. I've seen nothing but anti-Arab and pro-Israeli crap like usual.

Once again, I need to make it known: I am not putting my support behind Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, Al Quaida, Israel, Shining Path, the Seattle Supersonics, or the Little Rascals. What I am saying, and have comtinued to say, is that when you back a nation like Israel, that hurts the United States. That's okay, as long as that country is greatful for the assistance. Has Israel ever shown its gratitude for what the US does for it? Or how about DID for it? Why do we have to act like a person who does everything for their spouse and then in return for it gets no reciprocation, other than getting dragged into their messes?