Jersey retiring losing its luster.

[El-Moldo]

So what you're saying is, as soon as some other kid does better than Hoffman or Stephens, he will automatically have HIS number retired because HE is now the best player ever at that sport. Too bad Cummings, Hrivnak, Calderone didn't play against a steady diet of Cambria Heights, Central, BC, PC, Bedford, etc. Wonder what their numbers would have been like with that competition?

[sportsfan1000]

If that ever happens, yes, it probably will be retired. I have plenty of respect for the older players, and one could make an argument that they would have put up just as good numbers. The problem with that argument is there are too many what ifs. What if Cummings played this competition. What if Hoffman played against a WPIAL schedule. What if pigs flew? Instead of talking about the what-ifs, lets talk about facts. Facts are lost on most people when they are trying to debate their point. The fact is KH is the leading scorer in JHS history.

Way to many people still live in the past. Look at JHS's board at http://www.trojannation.net.

"Old-timers" are actively complaining about losing to Westy, BM, FH in football and basketball. They still think that shouldn't happen. JHS doesn't graduate 800 kids anymore.

[El-Moldo]

That's right. JHS no longer graduates 800 kids per year. This supports my point that nowadays kids at Johnstown CAN play alot as 10th graders, something you never saw in the '60's and '70's. So why make a big TA-DO about retiring a number of a player that had more favorable circumstances at achieving a milestone. It's like the Babe Ruth-Roger Maris argument. Ruth hit 60 home runs in 150 games, Maris hit 61 home runs in 162 games. How can you say that Maris was better than Ruth?

[sportsfan1000]

El-Modo:

While your point is well taken, let me explain to you why that argument can't be used. Players nowadays are way bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than they were in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Do you think Pat Cummings would have made the NBA today? No way in hell. Do you think Roger Maris or Babe Ruth would hit 61 now? They hit off of pitchers that through 5 and 6 games a week, and partied all night. So, what I'm saying is it works both ways. If you are going to make the argument that JHS played better competition back in the 60's, and 70's, I'll counter that by saying the athletes back then were not near what they are today. ESPN Classic has done nothing but proved every father and grandfather a liar by saying how great old time athletes were. Now, the younger generations can see what a bunch of crap that was. You say KH had more favorable circumstances than players in the 60's or 70's. I say he had it harder because the players student-athletes compete against today are better.

I always crack up looking at an old program and seeing the offensive lines of schools 30 and 40 years ago. Guards were 155lbs. Today you would have a hard time getting on the football field in any position at that weight. Again, my point to all of this rambling is you can't compare across generations for most reasons, because they can always be countered as I just countered your argument.

[El-Moldo]

It's all relative. It's like state of the art. For example, Hugh Green who played for Pitt years ago was fantastic and deserved to have his number retired. Not because of the gawdy statistics he put up, but because of his overall performance on the field and what he meant to the organization at the time. That's why you can't retire any jersey based on the stats of the person who wore them. Jimmy Brown will still be one of the best runningbacks ever to play in the NFL, but how would he do today??? Is a Jamal Lewis better, for example, because he may have better stats or totals? NO. Jim Brown played when there were 12 regular season games. Now there are 16, plus the entire playoff system, wildcards and all. I think players today have favorable conditions that give them a chance for better stats. Take high school wrestling. At one time getting 100 wins was a real challenge. Now it seems like it's so easy to do. Does that mean today's wrestlers are better than those in the past? No again. GJHS just shouldn't jump the gun and retire a jersey from a player that had certain advantages over those from yesteryear, that's all.