Well....just proves Forest Hills had no chance.

[GreenNGold]

Opi is right! Parents (in inner-city schools) do not care. Teachers are somehow suppose to teach morals, democracy, science, motivate each student to become the best they can, oh...and all that really matters are math and reading test scores! If parents would pick up the slack, actually motivate their CHILDREN and hold them accountable, then our education would work. Turn off the tvs, computers, and video games, give them a book, and then you'd see America take off. As it is, we can take a back seat to China and Finland!?!?

OG is most definitely right....its not just inner city schools, its local schools also. Education is just not a priority for a lot of parents anymore.

The education system is like a tripod. The school, the parent(s), and the student are the legs of that tripod. All are equally responsible for that student's education. If one leg fails to do their part, the system fails. I can tell you right now that most teachers do their part of being accountable. I think teachers get a bad rap for the failing of the system because the parents are not being accountable for their children's behavior/education. Teachers only control what is going on in that child s life for 7 1/2 hours of the day. Parents are accountable for the remaining 16 1/2 hours. The parent is responsible for making sure their child completes their homework, studies for tests, and completes any projects. The parent is also responsible for making sure their child gets decent meals, gets a decent amount of sleep, stays out of trouble, etc. Teachers have no control at all outside of school yet parents expect the teacher to discipline their child, teach their child manners, etc. It is not the school's responsibility to raise these children. Part of raising a child is taking responsibility for the child's education. Too many of these parents treat their children like they are their best friend, let them do whatever they want after school, stay up as late as the child wants, or buy them the latest gadget just so their child wont turn on them and give them problems. I can go on forever on this but I can guarantee it is not the teachers "fault" for the failures of the educational system because the system extends beyond the school.

[wpbc]

The problem with Education today is Parents.

If you think that is all that is wrong with education today then you're the one with the problem. Teacher unions, liberal social agendas, not disciplining students, wasteful spending, I could go on and on.... are the problems with education. We can not stop bad people from having kids, so why shouldnt they at least have one place to go such as school that would be a positive part of their lives? Because school A would have a better football team? Geez.

Please go on and on. Specifically how are these examples causing problems within the schools? What specific social programs, what specific schools don't discipline the students, how are they specifically wasting your tax dollars. Anyone can come on here and bash a system without any specifics.

You are right about 1 area. Vouchers/School Choice programs would only work in an inner city setting or when schools are in close proximity to one another (Ferndale, Westmont). How can you give parents a choice in other areas of Cambria or Somerset Counties when the distance to the other school is a considerable amount of mileage. Poorer students in those areas would not have the means for transportation every day. The biggest problem is socio economics that has been touched upon by others.

For the most part students that live in stable households that have educated parents are more likely to advance their own education. There are schools that provide programs such as AVID that help underachieving students prepare for college - but that would be one of those liberal programs that wastes your tax dollars on students who have "bad" parents that we couldn't keep from procreating.

And besides parents do have a choice in education - if they don't like their current school system they have the choice of moving to another area that offers a "better" education. No one is stopping them.

[The Ancient Enemy]

OP is 100% right about parents. Even Bill Cosby thinks so. He has a famous quote, "I used to blame the kids until I met the parents."

Everybody passes the buck to someone else. We cant hold kids back anymore because it hurts their self esteem. Just keep passing him along through the public school system, who cares if he cant figure out the 6% tax on $1.00.

I am out in CA and let me tell you... You do not send your kids to public school, plain and simple. Any family with ANY income is knocking down the door to get their kid into one of the couple dozen or so private schools in LA. I was unfortunate opportunity to get to see some of these public schools, and they are retardedly underfunded and look like a 1960's school that a flood ran through. Everything is old, warped, just ridiculous. The problem out here are the state entitlement programs that have beaten this state into absolute destruction. What a waste.

I could go on all day about this, but I'll stop before I get too worked up. I just thank God I had parents and grandparents who gave a ****.

[Manfred]

Who cares, if he/ she can't figure 6 % tax on a dollar? You're kidding, right? I stated that was basic 3rd or 4th grade math when we went to elem. school pre-computers, pre-game boy, pre- Wii, Pre Xbox, etc. A potential employer wants an employee with at least SOME basic skills. If you're in a fast food job dealing with the public, you DA_MN well better know how to make simple change from a register. How many stores/ jobs allow an employee to make 3 mistakes and then they are gone! Some simple skills that should have been learned in GRADE school can go a LOOOOOONG way into shaping your future. TAE- I know you and your parents. You have the courage and honesty to admit they have helped you tremendously in your education and other areas. Imagine back 10 years, or whenever you graduated from FH, that your family couldn't send you to the institution of choice, you had no basic skills, and had to try to earn a living at a real job. No skills. Minimum wage. Where would you be today. The RR? The Army? Canada? Basic skills learned in an educational setting is the only hope for kids, and they don't know how GOOD they have it. They think everything is owed to them, just because. You and I got into a serious discussion similar to this years ago, and I don't want to re-visit that. I think I've made my stance clear. Feel free to rebut.

[The Ancient Enemy]

Are we arguing different points or are we basically saying the same thing?

Just to clarify, I personally believe that we have created an entire generation (or maybe even a generation and a half) who dont feel like they need to push themselves and they feel like they should be taken care of by the government. We are, IMO, just breeding a lack of accountability and responsibility to not just our country and our peers, but especially ourselves. Are we living in a culture that doesn't WANT to get anything more than basic skills, or doesn't WANT to do anything more than bag groceries? I really think that we are getting to the point where it is more the exception than the norm for someone to strive and apply themselves. But what incentive does anyone have when they keep getting everything handed to them? I'm not talking about rich kids w/ daddy's credit card, I'm talking about the people who get welfare checks and head straight to the casino.

[Manfred]

Yes. Clarifications well put. I do agree, and if I misled you, my apologies. God forbid a terrorist detonates a nuke over/ in one of our cities and the resulting EMF field knocks out EVERYTHING technologically related. No lights, no electricity. No computers, no calculators. Irealize at that point, you are right, who cares if Johnny or Susie can't make change, but you get my point about someone with no basic survival skills.

[RidgeDad]

The problem out here are the state entitlement programs that have beaten this state into absolute destruction. What a waste.

I could go on all day about this, but I'll stop before I get too worked up. I just thank God I had parents and grandparents who gave a ****.

Just to clarify, I personally believe that we have created an entire generation (or maybe even a generation and a half) who dont feel like they need to push themselves and they feel like they should be taken care of by the government. We are, IMO, just breeding a lack of accountability and responsibility to not just our country and our peers, but especially ourselves. Are we living in a culture that doesn't WANT to get anything more than basic skills, or doesn't WANT to do anything more than bag groceries? I really think that we are getting to the point where it is more the exception than the norm for someone to strive and apply themselves. But what incentive does anyone have when they keep getting everything handed to them? I'm not talking about rich kids w/ daddy's credit card, I'm talking about the people who get welfare checks and head straight to the casino.

WARNING **OFF TOPIC**

Just a real quick diversion and then I'll leave this topic alone. TAE - I remember a few years ago you used to post in the Politics thread and you strongly promoted liberal policies.

Do these posts mean you have now left that dark side and come to realize that liberal policies simply don't work?

[wpbc]

Are we arguing different points or are we basically saying the same thing?

Just to clarify, I personally believe that we have created an entire generation (or maybe even a generation and a half) who dont feel like they need to push themselves and they feel like they should be taken care of by the government. We are, IMO, just breeding a lack of accountability and responsibility to not just our country and our peers, but especially ourselves. Are we living in a culture that doesn't WANT to get anything more than basic skills, or doesn't WANT to do anything more than bag groceries? I really think that we are getting to the point where it is more the exception than the norm for someone to strive and apply themselves. But what incentive does anyone have when they keep getting everything handed to them? I'm not talking about rich kids w/ daddy's credit card, I'm talking about the people who get welfare checks and head straight to the casino.

TAE - you're absolutely right on with those statements. I've been in the classroom for over a decade and there are very few teenagers that have a personal drive to do their best anymore. Most just want to do the bare minimum but still expect it to "earn" an A. Here is a great excerpt from a Sports Illustrated story from October about coaches and brothers Jim (Stanford U) and John (Ravens) Harbaugh.

Jim's classmates and teachers found out the hard way: He did not have an off switch. One time when the boys were in grade school, Jackie found out there was a problem at recess: The games meant too much to Jim. Was that, she wondered, a problem? Hell, Jack Harbaugh had exhorted his boys to approach every day with what he called "an enthusiasm unknown to mankind." What was he supposed to do now? Demotivate his middle child? Jackie said the U.S. education system was falling in love with "mediocrity—let's not let anybody be better than anybody else."Being better than anybody else was Jim's reason to live. Better, faster, stronger, higher, louder, more—whatever more was. There was a beast in him that he could not contain.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... z19SM4VbuO

[The Ancient Enemy]

WPBC, great post.

RidgeDad, I'm glad you brought that up. I knew sooner or later someone would, haha!

Here's the way I see it. Democrats are more concerned with the social aspect of government, and helping under privilaged people. That's fine. I think Johnson's Great Society was genius, and was great. He's one of my favorite presidents, if not my favorite. But thie thing is, the Democrats think too highly of how human beings really behave. Instead of taking government money as "assistance", which is what it is supposed to be, we have a tremendous amount of people who are using "assistance" as "the full load". Think about that for a second: Assistance, which would be to assist. Like a basketball player getting the ball inside for an easier shot. It is not supposed to be a full load, it is just ASSISTANCE. After awhile, you become entitled. Now you EXPECT the government to help you.

I think that the liberal mindset is the correct mindset, i.e. "lets help eachother" or "here, I'll help you out a little bit", but I think they have their heads in the clouds if they think human beings are not going to just take their money and then never actually get their own "crap" together.

When you give people money time after time, or you bait your grandson's hook for him every time, you are not teaching this person how to do it for themselves. And that is where I think the Democrats are wrong, in their mentality that people really do want to better themselves. Sadly, I dont think people generally DO want to better themselves, and when they are getting everything handed to them (money, entitlement programs) there is simply no incentive to do so.

I feel like we have created a society where we have lost our want for personal growth. I played tennis yesterday for the first time in probably 17 years, since I played w/ my aunt at the old tennis courts at FH. Even though it was just a stupid game to kill time and was not serious, I still wanted to know how to hit the ball correctly. I dont want to go out there and just swing as hard as I can, or swing at shots above my head. I am not out there to become a tennis star, I just wanna know how it all works.

I'm not convinced that video games have ruined our youth, or that iPods have destroyed music, but Manfred is right that we have lost basic "survival skills". That's a great point. But here's the thing. We use tractors because we dont want to plow the field, and bc tractors are more powerful than us and can do the job 24 hrs a day. We dont WANT to plow a field by following a donkey while trying to manuever a plow. The people at the old sewing factories didnt want to sew that stuff by hand, they wanted an easier way to do it, so the sewing machine was invented. Every technological advancement in the history of mankind was created so that we could take the manual labor out of it, as best we could. Human beings dont want to do those jobs day after day. I heard years ago that there were studies that humans are wired to do things the easiest way possible, and to try and come up w/ simpler ways of doing things. That's why matches exist, and lighters, so that we dont need to rub sticks together.

But Manfred is 100% right, of course. We lost all our basic skills. But I dont personally think this as much of a problem as the problems we face of over consumption, a complete lack of responsibility, esp financially, and just sheer mental laziness. That to me are much bigger issues than anything else.

Here's what I dont understand. Let's say you live either paycheck to paycheck or close to it. You can probably get away w/ having one kid if you cut back on all the things you dont really need. But, what if you throw 2 kids into it? Or 3? Or more? To me, it is like this: Every kid you have, the pie gets smaller and smaller. Why not have one kid and allocate 100% of those resources to ONE kid? Two kids get 50% of those resources. Three get 33%. Can you name me a situation that was, or would be, improved by throwing a little kid into it? It is not responsible.

We have thrown responsibility out the window. Now we have TV shows where being a teen mom is cool and hip. Or we glorify people who are irresponsible enough to have 18 kids they cant afford.

I dont know what the answer is to change everything, other than to raise your own kid in a household where they learn how dangerous credit cards are, and how inexpensive condoms really are, and how you have a responsibility to your civilization not to be a burden on them and to take care of yourself. Dont eat junk food, eat organics. Dont watch Jersey Shore, watch Animal Planet. Watch 'Idocracy', and do something about preventing it. Be interested in science and how to change your own brake pads. Jesus, just be an interesting person!

Be the exception, not the norm.

Honestly, I voted for Obama. 2-3 years later, I'm not sure I made the right decision. There is a dedication to promoting a lack of personal responsibility going on w/ that Party, and a commitment to Idiocracy. If the Republicans would just stop their pro-life blitzkrieg and stop pounding religion into everyone and just focus on finance, I would vote straight ticket every election.

I know this post was all over the place, and I apologize. Here's a great story. A coworker literally said this recently to one of my friends: "I just dont understand why so many Civil War battles were fought in national parks."

[psycho]

Wonderful dissertation ancient one!
The entitlement mentality is EXACTLY what has poisoned our schools. Everyone is ENTITLED to win without putting in the time. Everyone is entitled to play without committing to the sport. Everyone is ENTITLED to a freaking TROPHY........... and in the isolated instances where they do not receive their ENTITLEMENTS they (idiot, loser parents) go nuts like they did in Greece, France and England recently when their ENTITLEMENTS were cut.

And when everyone gets a trophy everyone loses. They lose their will and ability to challenge themselves, to compete to be better that the next person at something because the system does not reward them for doing so. Everyone is the same -- none better, none worse. This mindset creates mediocrity.