Some questions answered/raised

[ncsu1992]

This is a new thread but in response to Athens/Cat’s thread “Some Interesting Stats” where he asks me where I obtained the information that I have. Sorry it took so long. In answer, I was able to obtain books published by a Penn State professor/statistician who gave me permission to use information from these books for my research. He was very gracious and I believe now retired and was living in Florida. I believe the books are now in the Penn State library and each covers a specific area of Pennsylvania and the high school football teams in that area. I obtained a copy of each book which covered teams that I was interested in and they unfortunately disappeared but only after I had gleaned the information I needed. I would have replaced them but they were no longer in print. I have compiled many stats of my own for my own specific school and it does cover some for schools with which we competed over the years trying to include a short history of each. The professor, mentioned above, went to great lengths to be thorough with his investigation. He was very objective in his opinions but keep in mind that the work he did was probably complete up into the 1980s. I attempted to pick up from the point at which he ended. I do not work on the information on a constant basis and am now behind by about four or five years but have the information required to bring it up to date when I have the time and inspiration.

Now let me swat at the hornet’s nest. My interest was piqued by Crimson Ghost’s thread “WPIAL mindset” in which he discusses the media review about losses by schools brought about by penalties or bad calls. My philosophy has always been that if you are not disciplined enough to avoid penalties and overcome them by playing better then perhaps you are not as good as you think you are. Playing well is part of the game. I try not to blame the officials. I have seen bad calls and missed calls on both sides of the ball in just about every game but missed blocks, dropped passes and bad play calling probably contribute more to losses than a bad call by any official (they are not perfect either). Suck it up and play better. Those who complain the most and loudest are mostly those on the losing side. How many complain about a bad call that went their way? Or do they turn a blind eye? It works both ways. It’s only a game and will have no bearing on where our next meal comes from even though we may not sleep well that night.

Taking another whack at the hornet’s nest. I am not the biggest fan of the PIAA system of dividing the state into athletic Districts. Years ago it was probably ok but is antiquated at best. They had to work with what they had but in today’s environment falls far short of what it should be. It bothers me that one or two sections of the state seem to hold such dominance over winning state championships year after year after year. How can one, two, or three schools or Districts hold such sway each year? Do they feed the kids in these areas a different diet? Are they selectively bred to be so much larger and stronger than any other sections of the state? I don’t think so! They are kids. The advantage comes in that there are so many available in and near some districts than others. That raises the question of how some very small school districts can field such strong teams year after year. Where do all these huge, strong, and fast players come from? I will refrain from using the “R” word because there is probably nothing illegal going on. I might, however, use the “U” word – Unethical. What is to keep a coach from approaching the parent or parents of potential or even proven standout athlete(s) in a small school district from relocating from one rental home to another into an adjoining small school district to give their child an opportunity to play on a team that will provide the exposure needed to win a scholarship? Let’s face it, recruiters today are lazier than they once were and will chase the teams with the best records instead of trying to find that small ‘gold nugget’ at a “less than championship caliber” school. Let’s face it, it’s much easier to coach a team with a couple or three super players than to try and whip a bunch of less than great kids into a team. A bit of speed here or there, a strong armed passer or great blocker can make all the difference in the world. If you have to seed your garden with your neighbor’s crop, what’s the harm? They weren’t going any place this year anyway.

The PIAA system of Districting must be changed and brought into the 21st century. It should have been done long before. County lines are an antiquated method of delineating the Districts. County lines are set in stone but school district lines are not necessarily so. Athletic Districts should be formed by school districts and not county lines. The District lines should be drawn using the four school classifications to determine each, i.e. The lines for ‘A’ schools would not be the same as the lines for ‘AA’ schools, ‘AAA’ schools and ‘AAAA’ schools’. Each classification would have its own Districts based upon the school districts within its borders. Sounds a little complicated on the surface but not so if you think about it. It would not answer the problem of some isolated schools being required to play up or even down in classification in order to fill their schedule but it would get rid of some of the more “powerful” small schools being in a position to WORK the system. (Discussed below)

Here is the rub. The dreaded “C” word. Consolidation! Consolidation is very difficult in some areas of the state. Especially where population is spread out and/or separated by mountains or rivers. Some consolidation took place in the 1960s combining some very small schools together into larger school districts and there may be others out there that could be combined with some difficulty, but not impossibility. I am pointing my finger at the very large populated areas around the largest cities in the state. Need I name them? Looking at the school districts around these cities I see some very small ones which I could not discern any problem in combining into larger districts. Why are they not? These are the very school districts which could easily lure a family to move a short distance and have their child attend another school -- nothing illegal about it and the proof of athletics or academics would not even be questioned. If you are only renting what difference does it make – rent here, rent there? Only have to drive a couple miles to work. And Junior gets a shot at a scholarship playing on a “championship” team. Have to look out after your own. People who own or who are buying their home would not be so willing to pull up and move. Of course, the kid could move in with grandma and or grandpa if they are not already doing so. Then there is Aunt Matilda or Uncle Bill. These last two might come into question. Combine a few of those small school districts and now Junior gets to play on a AAA or even a AAAA team, but he is not now competing against some small mountain or rural school. He is also competing against some of his peers and may not get that shot at a scholarship. This is not a public vs. private discussion but a public vs. public one. Am I the only one who has seen or raised this concern? If I am wrong I will admit it. Chime in but try to stay on topic!!

[southpaw]

Some good points brought up about classifications. I think the state doing districts based on classifications would be hard because a lot of schools would be in different districts for different sports. They might be in an A district for football and then a AA district for basketball. I think a much more fair way to classify not only public schools but private schools is for the PIAA to use one more factor other than enrollment to make classifications. If the PIAA would use enrollments AND square mileage a school district encompasses for their classifications that would definetly level the playing field.

[ncsu1992]

Good point Southpaw. I can see the problem. My solution is to have the same classification regardless of sport. If you are A in football, you are A in basketball, etc., etc. I don't see the difference. There are always going to be the stronger schools within any classification. The schools that have less to pick from will put more emphasis on that sport which requires the least number of participants and will succeed. Some schools are never strong in a specific sport but still participate for the enjoyment of the game or they drop by the wayside.

[sportsfan1000]

Good point Southpaw. I can see the problem. My solution is to have the same classification regardless of sport. If you are A in football, you are A in basketball, etc., etc. I don't see the difference. There are always going to be the stronger schools within any classification. The schools that have less to pick from will put more emphasis on that sport which requires the least number of participants and will succeed. Some schools are never strong in a specific sport but still participate for the enjoyment of the game or they drop by the wayside.

I think the difference is there are more schools that play basketball than do football. The PIAA tries to even out the number of teams in each classification. When more A schools are added to basketball the cutoffs change for each classification to even things out. Now, do things need to be evened out? You could make the argument they do not, but I believe that is the reason.

[ncsu1992]

You are correct, Sportsfan1000. That would be the case anywhere. It is much easier to have a program which requires less participants in more schools. Not every school offers every sport or activity. Here in North Carolina there are easily half the number of schools there are in Pennsylvania. Each classification is split in half for the playoff season. The larger schools play in the AA playoff bracket and the smaller schools of each classification play in the A playoff bracket. You will have A and AA size schools playing in each conference but play in a separate bracket in the playoffs. It works quite well down here. Granted, it would require a major restructuring of the system in PA but it can and does work. Pennsylvania has to make some major changes and some established organizations will have to step aside for it to happen. Some of the well entrenched entities will have to change and you know of whom I refer. This could be voluntary or involuntary.

[southpaw]

I guess using one classification for all sports the sport to use to base that on would be basketball since that is the sport schools participate in most. The PIAA could do some things dirrerent to make things simpler and more fair. In Maryland there is only one enrollment number they don't separate boys/girls and its and all Public sanctioning body.

[Head Roadie]

Very interesting topic and...there may be some change coming when Brad Cashman steps down. It's possible that the new executive director, whomever that may be, could look at things as though they need restrucuring....especially if they bring someone else in from outside.

There are numerous ways to do things but what is best for Pennsylvania? What is best for Arkansas or Ohio or Hawaii isn't necessarily what is best for PA. I got an email from a wpial Track & CC Coach yesterday looking for a third classification in that sport.....there are always ideas out there.....football coaches and AD's are on the edge of their seat with the 15 vs 16 weeks vote coming later today out of Mechanicsburg and all the implications that has on football schedules for next year.

Just a note on a post above, Maryland does use one enrollment figure....but they do multiply by TWO with any Girls only or boys only school for fairness. In Maryland, there are Single-A schools that would be AAA in Pa. Very, very few small schools.

[El-Moldo]

In Pennsylvania football, there are 588 high school teams, broken down as 143 A, 147 AA, 148 AAA, 150 AAAA. In basketball, there are 733 teams, broken down as 186 A, 187 AA, 184 AAA, 181 AAAA.

[ncsu1992]

Part of my point El-Moldo. Each school can decide for itself if it wants to support an athletic program. Over 30 AAAA and AAA schools can have basketball and choose not to field football programs (or any others they choose). Probably mostly intercity schools. I can understand more A schools not having football but not AA and above -- their choice. I still believe that classification should be the same regardless of sport. Having different classifications depending on sport merely muddies the water.

[southpaw]

Idk the answer to the maryland question on boys/girls but I'm assuming that being and all public body all public schools are coed. Another thing maryland and many other states do is the classify freshman as v/jv. fresh/soph make up jv teams and jr/sr varsity. If a soph plays varsity then they can't play jv. I think PA needs some major changes such as redistricting, more classifications, and using school dist. sq. mileage in addition to enrollment for classifications. This would solve the private school question as they have no square mileage to encompass so they would all have the number 1 as a default. The square mileage would work as an inverse to enrollment. This would really level the playing field for large rural schools like Everett, Bedford, CR, Central Mt. etc. and solve the private school dilemma defacto as they would all have to move up in classification based square mileage.