Jane Fonda apology?

[El-Moldo]

Heaven help us!!!

[LionPride]

[quote="DCPassarelli";p="88893"]You can't say that America had a larger impact then the USSR.[/quote]

Amazing :roll: :roll: :roll:

[southpaw]

TAE...I know where to look just ran out of time last night. My memory is getting a little foggy in my old age. However Franco did have a huge personal debt to Hitler and Mussolini for aiding him in his bid for power.

DCP...I didn't say that America had more of an impact than the Soviets. I said the combination of the two factors led to the demise of the Nazis. Ever heard of U-boats? They singled handedly almost eliminated the British from the equation. The Germans didn't really need a navy as long as they controlled the three positions that I mentioned in the Med they would have made the British position in the strategic position untenable. Ships can't stay out to sea forever they need fuel and supplies. The Suez canal was the life line for Britain to communicate with her Southeast Asian colonies. Sever that link and Britain would have been doomed. Also if the Nazis control the middle east they gain access to a second front to invade Russia and a shorter route to the Causcas petroleum resources and access to the Black and Caspain. In short in would have change the whole strategic situation in the ETO.

[The Ancient Enemy]

Southy, I understand that, but here's the thing... Germany desperately needed an excuse to test it's weapons and tactics. The Spanish Civil War offered that possibility of a test, while they could still get away with "helping out a friend" who was also Facist. Remember, Germany at this time was not balls-to-the-wall in defiance against the rest of the world. I think there is an obvious political and military advantage of helping Franco (thinking he'd help down the road) but I honestly believe Germany would have jumped at the chance to help about anyone in Europe where they could hide under a guise and still test their weapons and tactics, which were all basically new concepts. Anyone else having civil wars over there at that time?

[southpaw]

There's more to it than just military tactics. Facism is the ideological opposite to communism. The side opposing Franco had communist ties and support from Stalin. The specter of facism in Europe arose from a "red scare" that went through all European countries after WW I.

[The Ancient Enemy]

Spain sure did a hell of a job helping conquer the USSR, the hot-bed of Communism. They also did a hell of a job alleviating Germany in North Africa, where a lot of troops had to be initially sent to help Mussolini. That's why I think it's more tactic-based with the out of "we can help our ideological friend".

[DCPassarelli]

How would this have changed USSR's massive production of T-34s? There is no way Germany could have matched it.

[southpaw]

Good point DCP! the Rooskies had a huge advantage in tank production of the T-34 and the KV-1 and KV-2's. That's the whole point! The Soviets didn't have to deal with the strategic bombing of their war industry. If the Germans dealt with the British threat their industrial capacity would have been much more efficient.

Even though the T-34 was a formidable tank the German Tiger and Panther tanks along with the far superior Wehrmarcht training the tactics would have been more than the Soviets could handle. The Soviets arguably had better tanks but the Germans most definitely had better combined arms tactics and training.

The Germans faced a supply and logistics problem the last two years on the eastern front due to the Anglo/American bombing. The Germans had the manpower to match the Soviets just not the supplies and munitions and the transportation infrastructure that was in a state of constant repair that further drained manpower and resources.

[The Ancient Enemy]

Germany had problems in Russia for many reasons but one of the BIGGEST was an over-sight on track-gauges. And yes it is true that Germany really felt the pinch of the bombing, southpaw, but they were already running out of resources. There are reasons why Germany invaded as many places as they did, besides "glory". They needed resources.

[southpaw]

They ran out of resources because they were boxed in by the us and the British! The gauge problem was a minor one. They built more railroads in conquered territory than were there before the war. Heck they poured enough concrete into the Atlantic Wall to make like 10 Hoover dams!

They invaded too many places at once because they were led by a madman who had no concept of strategy. A trench rat corporal has no business running an army!